But at least he had an excuse Grim- respectfully one question:No hard and fast rules agreed, but let me ask you this?Do you not think there is a difference between a person like Ruth who was 15 when her father starting using hard drugs with her and in front of her, and encouraging her to have sex with older strangers WINDING UP hanging around the wrong crowdAnd a single mother like Linda who has parents willing to help her stay out of trouble and encourage her not to be in trouble yet consistently throughout her life CHOOSES to be with the wrong crowd??? What if she wouldn't have testified? How's that? You said Kreneinkle said it. ALL this trying to make sense out of the Helter Skelter race war reminds ME of the "Gott'a KILL the Commie Gooks on the other side of the world" MOTIVE for the Vietnam War.The worst Communists were ONLY 90 miles off Florida and posed a REAL threat to America. var part3 = "Matt at Mansonblog dot com"; She admits to getting into the car and being struck by the body being there but the spirit not. Farflung saidI'm kinda thinkn' there were plenty of precursors, gleefully ignored, or dismissedI think you're right. Mine is that Linda left her child with a group of people she knew were capable of murder to save her own ass. A young Linda, as per her friends, neighbours and teachers, was intelligent, kind and shy but starry-eyed romantic. Ruth's Mum wasn't in agreement with Dean and his changes. RH: Maybe like this?1. But if anyone has known for the last 47 years, they ain't been talking. I'm kinda thinkn' there were plenty of precursors, gleefully ignored, or dismissed.Linda's report cards packed with A's and B's? She mentioned to the Grand Jury that there were to be 2 death squads. ?Leslie & Tex are the only ones that have stated that categorically and have remained with it. Dec. 3, 1969, Concord, N.H. - Linda Kasabian, right, covers her face as Los Angeles Police woman Joan Simpson escorts her from Court House to start the trip back to California. Dostie Demonstrates Buster Alerting at Barker Ranch! ITS REALLY TOO BAD!! Linda Kasabian falls prey to the hypnotic charms of Charles Manson and his self-proclaimed "family" during the drug-fueled summer of 1969. He'd lose his train of thought and numerous times the Judge would ask him to put things in ways that could be understood because he didn't have a clue what Irving was on about. He wasn't even charged with shooting Lotsapoppa, but we all know it happened..The question: what if she was ASKED?She wasn't asked, she was told. In late June of 1969, she attempted a reconciliation with. Maybe around the middle of the night. I think after I began to beleive it was extraordinarily difficult to connect Tate and LaBianca on any other theory you are sort of left with HS or something like it. ?It is very possible and probable that there was other reasons for those crimes and those two houses. She witnessed Charles "Tex" Watson shoot and kill Steven Parent as he was trying to exit the property. So WHY was Bugliosi and or the DA so obsessed with getting Charles Manson instead ? At the front door, she ran into a stabbed and beaten Wojciech Frykowski. There were a number of details like this that came out, even worse ones during the Watson trial. After all, before August '69 was out, she had told at least 4 people {and possibly 6} about the murders or events surrounding them, but not LE. ?Then she walks and spends the rest of her live breaking the law and partying wit her own child who she breaks laws with.Human side? But I do think that atmosphere at the time contributed to the events. A Conversation with Johnny Ussery- The Then 7 year old son of Clyda Dulaney! That mid 50s to mid 60s period may have been one of the first times that families began finding out that there was more to parenting than provision and discipline.Diane Lake is the one I really feel for, being 13 at the time her parents started roaming the universe and pushed her into the vortex. Or even implicate him.Based upon what ex-members recently revealed about the Hinman murder and DeCarlo, the maker who interviewed these people believes that DeCarlo should and hopefully WILL be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. But if he did use Helter Skleter to motivate the others to do the crimes for him, and those who actually did the killing- thought they were doing it in the name of Helter Skleter.Which is the real motive? But a vote for a real mass murderer like Clinton is the better choice. There is no online registration for the intro class Terms of usage & Conditions But she testified against great danger. Testifying before the jury that it was all them and Charlie had nothing to do with it isn't exactly the best way to demonstrate the prosecutor was wrong. I'm not saying the 'Linda kites in Charlie speak' didn't happen, just that I don't believe that had anything to do with Susan recanting. It is usually something unrelated to what they are being asked like Krenwinkels Sharon wasnt supposed to be there comment I read about somewhere. As we all know Linda Kasabian was born Linda Darlene Drouin on June 21, 1949. Pat too- and their stories are all the same after all these years.I ask myself these things when telling myself it cant be H/S because everyone in TLB land says so.. St Circumstance saidGeorge and Schreck have spoken to all the people around the killersAnd yet are no more agreed on the motive. She chose to be the way she wasAround the age of 14, I chose to be the way I am and have been doing so ever since. Linda purposely brought Sadie and Clem to the wrong door, and the mission was aborted. I believe she was not and the same applies on my end. Many of those important questions were answered because they could be answered. Now taken into considering the location this apparently took place. look at there high school pics- they had the same kid of background as me lol. If Manson was the God to these people and everyone else was disposable. I should also add I think more than half of what is said about him and the various different accounts of life on the ranch is myth and fantastic sensationalism. His closing argument, like the closing argument of any attorney, is just that 'argument'. As Linda heard people screaming for their lives, she ran to the main house. And what of the guy that prosecuted them ? Then and there ? Not even in her Grand Jury testimony did Atkins say anythingAtkins was never pushed on it. Linda Kasabian Who Is She: Kasabian was the Family member who eventually turned on the Family. So to me even if there is more to the story- the actual motive = the actual reason they went over and killed. Who Is Linda Kasabian? Granted, the residents could be difficult and particularly nasty to those that were not English {ie, most of them} but they can't all have been 'off' days ! You shouldn't stop- that is fascinating stuff Saint, I just watched that. And it is almost impossible - hell, it is impossible - to cut the guy who proclaimed himself the Devil before butchering nine people any slack. The three were instructed to kill an actor that once picked Kasabian up hitchhiking. ME thinks there might be a REAL story there. Saint, no apology is necessary. But wait a minute Grim, Atkins never mentions this event to the Grand Jury, not a word. She was the chief witness at the prosecution of Manson and his followers for the Tate LaBianca murders. That's hardly her doing. Im open to another motive and assuming there probably is one, but cant find the same evidence for it that I can for H/S- all am I saying By the way Dreath - if you have never seen it you can go to Back Porch Tapes and watch the video of Beatrice Berry Show- or Bertrice Berry? The general consensus seems to have been that it all happened very quickly.But what do I know ! Because there was no doubt that I knew that what was ever going to happen here was not going to be good. I only decide how I wanna feel. I would have testified without a deal" translates when the evidence is revealed to 'I'm not talking even if the sky falls (but I will for immunity)". I for one would never accuse Bugliosi of improperly 'coaching' a witness or eliciting perjured testimony. I also don't think it let's Manson 'off the hook'.Then again if Van Houten really wanted to cut holes in her shirt for her elf wings maybe a bottomless pit with a secret magical realm, living there for 100 years and growing to 144,000 souls was part of it. I kept wondering what the relevance was. Pat, in Guinn's book, presents herself as not wanting the murders to happen, going so far as to say that the following night at Waverley, before anthing happened with Rosemary, she prayed to God, asking him to make the murders stop and since she went ahead and exercised her own free will in participating in carnage and mutilation and God didn't strike her down and stop her, Leslie or Tex, she's not believed in God since that night.And she has a problem with Linda presenting herself as not being a willing participant.As a side issue, if Linda hadn't been at the car when they arrived at it after Cielo's action, would they have just driven off and left her ? Pat never admitted to it though it was in her thought process, just not as the specific reason for being at Cielo. Retrospectively however..Linda K. is the perfect choise for examination IF you want to discover a more human side of the Manson Family StoryThat tends to be my chosen angle of approach because for me, it is a very human story, encompassing a large scope of culture, society, rebellion against it, motivation etc. Who should we rely upon? "She obviously neglected to mention that she got into Steven Parent's car. The LicenseThe license is a bit of a red herring. It was at night and I had no knowledge of what was happening until we actually got there." You can correct me on that one. 'Best at the backhand slash' might not have sold well to the jury. Linda Kasabian; however, stuck to her testimony. I certainly wouldn't rely on it for back up proving Linda to be dodgy. I never could figure out a way any of them would have ben acquitted (Thank God!). And if so, in what context ? Linda married again, this time to a hippie named Robert Kasabian. I hope I do that. This marriage too did not prove to be stable and Linda Kasabian returned to stay with her mother in New Hampshire. This might have been tried as a felony murder case like Van Houten III. As opposite the teachings of Christ as one can get.Is Linda a good person? And even during that phase, they tried to paint her as the mastermind, but no one even attempted to say she killed anyone. ?I do not get it at all.. there is a human side to this and there are a couple of people to pity who got involved with Charlie. But that wasn't what that was about.It isn't so much a case of lying about witness as much as emphasizing anything positive you can find lurking in the scum. That is exactly what Leslie Van Houton was charged and CONVICTED forYeah, despite Bugliosi saying in his closer:"One thing is abundantly clear. But Linda was left to her own devices and ended up pretty much where she had been heading long before July 4th, '69. AKA: Linda Christian, Yana the Witch, Linda Chiochios. Dreath saidyou have a tendency to 'move the goal posts' which makes responding to you rather difficultIf by that you mean that I seem to jump around on the subjects and quotes I'll comment on, that's true. [And Bugliosi leads a reluctant Kasabian to the answer he wants. Yes. HS was something she was getting to grips with. 'Now is the time for HS' only works if you have three parts: (1.) The idea of Charles Manson symbolizing evil is daft to me ~ even though I think he is guilty of what he was convicted for. But kids were revered in the Family which made Tonya safer. That gave me an insight that Bugliosi & Gentry's book doesn't even hint at, though it initially inspired it. She participated in terrible crimes, and then left her child with the people who she knew committed them.Then she flipped on those people too.Who could trust Linda? When this second marriage hit the rocks, Linda. Linda probably came from a home where she was ignored, and didn't have much direction or discipline, hence her making extremely poor choices in life, even as recent as 1997. Let's save our sympathies only for those He deems good. It means nothing more. And refused. When you have three major league supporters of Charlie that have had his ear, for example, such as Nicholas Shreck, our own George and AC Fisher Aldag all espousing different narratives, one can't help but wonder and make the comparison with the confusion that existed in the Family in the first place, with Susan saying this, Squeaky, Brenda & Sandy saying that, Linda saying the other, Tex saying blurb and Pat incoherent yet pointing to a big clue with her writing and Leslie saying something else.It seems to be catching around Charlie.If Fleischmann actually did come up with that plan to knock Atkins out of the last seat in the life boat it was brilliantTruly.That said, Richard Caballero had said all along that he felt Susan would never testify against Charlie at trial. Grim, I love you to death and read everything you post but you have a tendency to 'move the goal posts' which makes responding to you rather difficult. How would she have heard anything Linda said, especially when you take into account that Linda's statement was issued to Susan ?Secondly, how would Pat know how much of a willing participant Linda was ? Linda, who was found, possessing methamphetamine, avoided a jail sentence by attending drug-counseling classes. So WHY go the distance. Back in the day drunkenness and mentally altering ones mind with drugs was considered BAD, because only losers did that. His case went like this:"Charles Manson sent out from the fires of hell at Spahn Ranch three heartless, bloodthirsty robots and--unfortunately for him--one human being, the hippie girl Linda Kasabian." From there, Linda and Tanya flew back to New Mexico, only to hitchhike all the way to her father's home in Florida, and finally back to her mother in New Hampshire. Both were at the Spahn Ranch near Chatsworth, stronghold of the 35-year-old Manson's nomadic cult of young people. She told Richard Caballero that on LaBianca night, there were to be 2 death squads. I am still in contact as recently as 12/16. If one of the ones that you obviously wanted {the "reasonable" ones} had been accepted as the one, exactly the same thing could be said.How perfect did the stars align for the prosecutor that there was one angel among the groupAt this point, I always like to say that being an angel is not a guaranteed beautiful thing.Satan's an angel !The big question: How do WE know she wouldn't kill? Anniversary thoughts- Leary7 said it best. Linda on the other hand, understood it on a level but it hadn't taken a major grip on her consciousness. ]But her last statement in the world of saintly jurists is not 'reliable': you as the listener/ reader should stop listening/reading where indicated. Eventually, she. Granted, not everyone becomes a murderer because of a rough passage in a part of one's life, but to be honest, that's no argument, because some do.But this isn't an appeal to feel sorry for anyone, just an observation that life contains nuances that are neither easy to explain nor simple to dismiss. Not even in her Grand Jury testimony did Atkins say anything. Saint- I commend you for your deletions. Atkins remembers seeing Pat struggle with Abigail but can't recall the exact sequence of things where she was concerned or how she ended up crawling on the lawn as they were about to leave. We do not know why any of them were picked. But when I compare the before with the after in Jay's death, for me there's no comparison.The question is why would Atkins leave Sharon, alive and alone, in the house to take this little stroll?Going to get a knife from Linda, struggling with Frykowski towards the front door, shouting to Tex for helpThere is no one inside. I think goofy's comments about 'being at war' and 'casualties of war' are interesting. Post this, she moved in with her father who was working as a bartender in Miami. )I don't see her as having a personality disorder, just a consistently lawless mindset, which doesn't invalidate her ability or sometime willingness to do what is right. But she never says she took the wallet, though the general assumption was that she had. Bob Kasabian wanted to go and storm the castle gates to retrieve Tonya but that would have resulted in danger for all 3 Kasabians. // -->,